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JD666 23-02-12 01:34 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
^^ Yeah but we make our presence felt in our own obnoxious ways... Atleast they follow a discipline or an organized system of living

KiD0M4N 23-02-12 02:33 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Damn! I am such a big fat liar!

http://www.erodov.com/forums/imageho...557a908a3f.png

I mean, this used to be several 'pages' long before I 'intervened' last year.
But hey, what ever rocks your boat right?

Sorry for bringing this up guys, but someone again just called me a liar. Just thought someone should present my case right?

Free Radical 23-02-12 03:12 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JD666 (Post 710195)
^^ That you need to look beyond trains.. Please! We as Indians dont respect or handle multi million dollar aircrafts properly and have been voted the worst passengers to handle, You think we have the decency or the discipline or etiquette to respect and use such trains even? With our pan spitting, vandalizing, non sensical, non caring population??? Its not gonna happen.

Disagree here. The Metro is almost a decade old in Delhi now (I take the red line everyday which is the oldest of the fleet). However it still looks as good as new due to stringent enforcement of rules and the same aam junta uses it.
The pan spitting, vandalizing, non sensical, non caring population HAS to change!
This requires more of a planned approach than just empty laws which won't ever be enforced. Its about time someone did something about it.
Heck it will only create more govt. jobs. and less nuisance :rolleyes:

baba doga 23-02-12 06:30 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Radical (Post 710231)
Disagree here. The Metro is almost a decade old in Delhi now (I take the red line everyday which is the oldest of the fleet). However it still looks as good as new due to stringent enforcement of rules and the same aam junta uses it.
The pan spitting, vandalizing, non sensical, non caring population HAS to change!
This requires more of a planned approach than just empty laws which won't ever be enforced. Its about time someone did something about it.
Heck it will only create more govt. jobs. and less nuisance :rolleyes:

people do spit in the metro. a bit less maybe. they meticulously clean everything at night.

vijayninel 23-02-12 09:55 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by baba doga (Post 710197)
you have to accept the apple-foxconn approach of treating people as fair . else, when you praise chinese infrastructure prowess and abundance , you are being myopic. there is solid cost to be paid for such development.

india may not have a bullet train tearing through western ghats. but then, neither does it have ghost towns. 8-laning a 4 lane highway may be taking forever. but at least people are not being plucked out of their dwelling places like potatoes. of course, there are a sizeable number of attempts. but that is not shit that can't be reversed.

See everything doesnt have to be black and white. I agree that there have been excesses in China and there have been mal-investments in the fixed assets. But they have built a lot of excellent world class infrastructure as well.

BTW those Foxconn employees are given highly subsidised public transport and housing - one of the reasons that chinese products are so cheap. These days in China the government has started building lots of low cost housing for poor and middle class people with good infrastructure. When was the last time we were building low cost housing for our people? A house costs more than in the U.S here.

In India too they pick out people like potatoes esp where mining land is concerned. Of course this never makes it in mainstream news because it is mostly in remote tribal areas.

We dont have to take inspiration from the negative things in China but they have done a lot of good as well and we can learn from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD666 (Post 710222)
^^ Yeah but we make our presence felt in our own obnoxious ways... Atleast they follow a discipline or an organized system of living

When the Delhi metro had first opened, I too had feared that they will spoil it with pan spitting that is so visible elsewhere in Delhi, but to my surprise the Delhi people have kept it very clean.

You know spitting was a major problem in China too till the Cultural Revolution in 60's and 70's. I recall a Chinese movie ad in which a small girl goes on to tell a very old man that - Grandfather dont spit, it spreads diseases etc etc.. and attitudes did change after thousands of years. (I agree they dont have this pan thing but they had chewing tobacco)

JD666 23-02-12 11:54 AM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Radical (Post 710231)
Disagree here. The Metro is almost a decade old in Delhi now (I take the red line everyday which is the oldest of the fleet). However it still looks as good as new due to stringent enforcement of rules and the same aam junta uses it.
The pan spitting, vandalizing, non sensical, non caring population HAS to change!
This requires more of a planned approach than just empty laws which won't ever be enforced. Its about time someone did something about it.
Heck it will only create more govt. jobs. and less nuisance :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijayninel (Post 710258)
See everything doesnt have to be black and white. I agree that there have been excesses in China and there have been mal-investments in the fixed assets. But they have built a lot of excellent world class infrastructure as well.

BTW those Foxconn employees are given highly subsidised public transport and housing - one of the reasons that chinese products are so cheap. These days in China the government has started building lots of low cost housing for poor and middle class people with good infrastructure. When was the last time we were building low cost housing for our people? A house costs more than in the U.S here.

In India too they pick out people like potatoes esp where mining land is concerned. Of course this never makes it in mainstream news because it is mostly in remote tribal areas.

We dont have to take inspiration from the negative things in China but they have done a lot of good as well and we can learn from that.



When the Delhi metro had first opened, I too had feared that they will spoil it with pan spitting that is so visible elsewhere in Delhi, but to my surprise the Delhi people have kept it very clean.

You know spitting was a major problem in China too till the Cultural Revolution in 60's and 70's. I recall a Chinese movie ad in which a small girl goes on to tell a very old man that - Grandfather dont spit, it spreads diseases etc etc.. and attitudes did change after thousands of years. (I agree they dont have this pan thing but they had chewing tobacco)

I Agree with both of you.. but implementing and maintaining something over a 200 km length and 50-80 stations is one thing.. Ensuring everyone falls in line? Not happening anytime soon...

baba doga 23-02-12 12:04 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
I am more willing to accommodate air travel as a good transport medium. but i am totally unwilling to surrender any perceived notion of freedom that i may presently have, just to attain better infrastructure.

JD666 23-02-12 12:07 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
^^ Where does being in order, following the rules, not spitting or squatting everywhere, not throwing trash everywhere figure in?

kris 23-02-12 12:46 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
i heard the other day from one of my colleagues that they have a separate counter for Indians in some US airport he happened to frequent, and the reason they gave is that 'indians mob' . unfortunately true. Even the counter at my office canteen (full of 'proffessional' engineers) resembles a fish market. sorry for OT

JD666 23-02-12 01:20 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
^^ Its true.. You speak to any cabin crew, and they will have one clear answer, Indian passengers are the worst in the world, drunk or sober...

vijayninel 23-02-12 02:37 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JD666 (Post 710195)
The concorde era may be gone, but that does not mean that lesser people are taking to the skies.

The Concorde was a magnificent piece of technology. It never became mainstream aircraft because the technology was bad, but because it was economically not viable, environmentally damaging, too noisy and too expensive for most people.

The same problems exist for the general subsonic aircraft at a lower level. Advanced technology need not necessarily be viable due to economic, environmental and other reasons. Rocket engines are marvels of engineering but rockets are not an acceptable mode of transport for the same reasons.

Now the turbojet will remain the engine of choice for aircraft as far as the eye can see (maybe a few turboprops here and there) and the development of this technology has hit a plateau from quite some time. Pulsejet's offer some hope but are still not practical enough for use in manned aircraft.

So fundamentally all these aircraft need lots of scarce and expensive aviation turbine fuel. The production of this fuel is slowing down and prices are going to shoot up in the future. Besides that they need huge airports and runways which are clear of high rise buildings and birds. Real estate is very scarce in crowded Indian cities and we cant build airports in all these small cities.

So airplanes are always going to be there but can never become a mass transport. It will always remain a niche transport to carry small numbers of people.

High speed trains can be run out of various fuels and renewable energy resources (for eg wind power can be used to generate electricity which then power these trains). They dont have to be dependent on import of scarce turbine fuel. They can be inexpensively run even in small cities with small stations. So if India is serious about its transportation needs then the focus on the technology of trains. The technology of aircraft is fundamentally unfeasible as a mass transport.

JD666 23-02-12 03:14 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
^^ I never discussed about it taking over or superseding Rail travel in terms of volumes.

Aviation traffic and passenger loads have grown year on year, so thats more people taking to the skies.

And trust me, city congestion has never been an issue for airport planning or development, case in point, the airport in your city, Hyderabad, built on the outskirts, or Bangalore also for that matter.

Air Travel grows and expands based on the needs of the people/business men. Earlier it was okay for them to travel from a smaller city like Nagpur or Pune by train to their desired location, since there was no email and no internet, speed of communication was slower, and hence was traffic along with it.

Now a small businessman can also think of selling all over the country or internationally even, and with that improvement in business has come an improvement in his spending power, which necessitated for him to reach his destination quickly. Time is money, and people started evaluating their money with regards to their time.

So as the buying capacity goes up, so will a form of luxury travel ( so to speak ) like Aviation will go up.

Fuel prices have doubled in India over the last 5 years, but dint curb the growth of the aviation industry. Boeing is already working on biofuels and what not.

With thousands of aircrafts all over the world, the manufacturers are not planning to shut shop 20-30 odd years in the future when oil becomes scarce.

Oh and Rocket engines are marvels of metallurgy, Check out a turbine engine up close and you will marvel at its engineering, when you see a turbine thats 10 ft across, rotating with margins on the sides that a sheet of paper can barely slot in.

Trains can be run on anything you dream of. Solar, coal and oil slush, nuclear even.

thebanik 23-02-12 03:40 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
Go on guyz, after a long time I am reading a good (technical rather than political) discussion on E .........

Sorry JD, need to spread more, :(

baba doga 23-02-12 05:09 PM

Re: The Kingfisher Tamasha and Collapse of Aviation Industry in India
 
i wants nuclear sub for personal intercontinental transport. can i haz?

dexbg 23-02-12 06:17 PM

@JD666 -

Solar powered trains.. A Big no-no.

Nuclear Powered - not safe. Efficient but not safe. Given our safety records.. One crash n spill will make the section of the unusable for decades..

The bigger problem as you said is all the big demand of crude oil which will only skyrocket as India's billion start to need more..




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