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Old 14-07-09   #1
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cPVA is coming


For those who don't know what cPVA is, its a supposedly cheaper panel derivative of PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) panels. Just like" e" in eIPS was "enhanced" and not "economical", "c" in cPVA is not necessarily cheaper , but perhaps a reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_polarization of light which it employs.

PVA was jointly developed by Samsung and Sony against LG-Hitachi's IPS, so no wonder, Samsung has the first cPVA monitor out in response to LG's eIPS.

The Samsung F2380 directly competes with the Dell 2209WA.

Here's a side by side comparison of the Dell 2209WA (eIPS) with the Samsung F2380 (cPVA)

Source:C-PVA硬砍E-IPS 三星F2380对比详测IT.com.cn IT世界网-买家最多的IT网站



Left (Dell 2209WA)


Right (Samsung F2380)










btw, the Samsung F2380 (cPVA) is 16:9 Full HD 1920x1080 23" i.e. best of both worlds resolution.
Reading around led me to find out that though the Samsung F2380 produces almost as good colors as the 2209WA, it did not have the disturbing angle glow typical of IPS screens and the blacks as are expected from PVA derivatives are just great. Provisional input lag measurements put it around around 8ms, which is great for such a panel. Alas, but it also inherits the flaws of its parents, i.e. ghosting (which is quite bad in it, or so I hear) which is inexcusable for a contemporary monitor.
It has two DVI panels (sadly, no HDMI) for the additional console input.
I also hear, that like the 2209WA, it also has the awesome stand which allows you to tilt, pivot, adjust height and rotate the display into portrait mode.

However it should make for a stunning display for movies and TV and is surely a fitting reply to the Dell 2209WA.

Last edited by Free Radical; 14-07-09 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 14-07-09   #2
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Review 1

Source:
Samsung F2380

This is not a professional review. I use the equipment that is available for general public in general computer stores.

Specification

What is advertised?

23"diagonal
1920x1080 resolution
Contrast ratio 3000:1
Viewing angles 178 degrees
Two digital inputs (DVI)


Design, Mechanics, Ergonomics

The F2380 features height-adjustable stand, tilt, rotation and portait mode.
Design is simple and quite elegant. There are no traditional openings for ventilation.



The monitor has 2 DVI inputs and one D-Sub.
The main power switch is provided.
Two DVIs and the full panel flexibility are from the list of an "adult" monitor features. A plus to the F2380.

Image controls are not that good.
Control buttons underneath the panel are among the most awkward and inappropriate I have ever seen.

In terms of size and resolution, 23" 1920x1080 is exactly what happens if you take a full resolution 24" 1920x1200 monitor and cut off a piece of it.



Built Quality

An accurate work, no loose parts.

Backlight is not uniform (corners).

This photo gives an impression of what it is. The visibility of this defect depends on ambient light and the screen content. For example, it's more visible in darkness on wide screen movies (on the black bars).



Measurements and Calibration

Measurements on default settings revealed outstanding contrast ratio. According to the available equipment, maximal brightness is right below 200cd/m2. It's lower than some sources reported and is still to look at. But the contrast ratio is impressive indeed. It plays around 3000:1.
Minimal brightness is measured at 22cd/m2.
The lowest level of black the probe is able to report: 0.02 cd/m2 at brightness control at about 30%.

This unit was calibrated using LaCie BluEye Pro kit.
After calibration: White = 137cd/m2, Black = 0.05cd/m2, CR = 2740:1.



At this point we can note that promised CR 3000:1 is techically achievable.

But...
This "3000:1" is hidden under calibration probe.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS9-j_TJbgYW[/youtube]

Did you see those colored circles under the probe?
This is where "3000:1" CR exists.
Is this CR related to the whole screen?
What is real F2380 conrast ratio?
Next chapter.

Image Quality

Uncalibrated cPVA(?) Samsung F2380 displays the worst color shift and black crush one can expect from a PVA monitor.
In fact, even worse - to the point of some familiar photos being unwatchable.
Initial measurements at default settings revealed total disorder in colors and gamma. While some "technical" color inaccuracy (dE4.8) is a norm for an uncalibrated monitor, gamma is messed up in opposite directions for dark and bright tones.
In the result, the famous turtle (the test photo) sank so deep in darkness that usual angle view help did not resuscitate it.
Depending on the viewing angle and ambient light, the monitor constantly produces black crush and moderate LCD glow with transition areas in between (an illustration below) that travels back and fourth across the screen.



With no doubt, this is typical PVA behavior somewhat exaggerated by specific model issues.

Calibration kit (add $200 (Rs. 10,000) )improves the image dramatically (considering where the start point was).
I am looking at the screen and cannot recognise this PVA....OMG, this NOT a wide gamut PVA! We have a holiday today!
After calibration we get normal colors and live faces..... until you move your head.
Well, this is still a PVA. The turtle feels much better but color shift is still present. Silverish false 3D effect is still present. Serious loss of contrast from angles greater than 25-30 degrees off axis is present.
Shall we buy a calibration tool at a cost of 50-70% of the monitor price just to bring it in order? A tough question.

Generally speaking, viewing angles of this model (and most of PVAs as well) without significant image deterioration are within 75-80 degrees, 90 at most.
178 degrees? Joke...



Now we are going to video section. Then we'll summarize image quality information.

HD (Half Definition) Video

As we know from practice, even if a manufacturer calls the product "Twice HD" - it guarantees nothing.
Full HD displays may have 1920x1080, 1920x1200, 2560x1600 and other resolutons, but may or may not support Full HD video.
The Samsung F2380 passed the test in connection with a BD player. Blu-ray video can be displayed with correct geometry.
The only note is that 16:9 option actually overscans video, so Fit the Screen option should be used.

The geometry is correct. And what about the image itself?
Unfortunately, this monitor has no controls to reduce black crush and color shift.
The F2390 OSD has 3 gamma setting to choose from. But anything different from default option (Gamma 1) makes things worse.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOkGjFru4x0[/youtube]

A movie scene from BD player.
This is something to remember. Can you see a man at the background (R side)? He disappears!

Now back to fantastic CR.
What is contrast ratio? It's a ratio of brightness of the brightest part of the image to brightness of the darkest part of the same image. Contrast allows us to tell an object from its background.
Look at the right part of the Samsung F2380 screen.
What CR is there if you don't see the man at the background?
Yes, CR is zero.
Where is our 3000:1??

Now it's time to answer questions.

1. So-called cPVA promises record-breaking contrast ratio.
True or False?
For the colorimeter it's true.
For the user it's false.
3000:1 is just arithmetic. We have measured calibrated CR: 137:0.05=2740
Consider that measurements fluctuate. Look at 0.04 cd/m2 instead of 0.05 - just 0.01 invisible difference blows CR up to 3425:1 (137:0.04=3425)
Contrast ratio means nothing without proper viewing angles and colors.
Yes, high CR plays its role on Kuro plasma because Kuros have excellent viewing angles with no issues.
This is not the case with the Sansung F2380.

2. This is a "Full HD" monitor.
True or False?
True for proper geometry.
False for colors and black crush. High "definition" with a man lost from the screen?

3. The remedy for PVA color shift and black crush is found.
True or False?
More false than ever before.

Interpolation

According to my observation, it's not too good.
But I wouldn't blame the F2380 here: even CRTs have "recommended" resolution for best image presentation.



Office Use

For the office use the F2380 is a controversial product.

Pros.
Text is well readable. Pixel structure seems to be the same as on older wide gamut PVAs, but pixels are lit evenly, without bright/dark triangles that made text on those PVA slightly fuzzy.

Brightness can be reduced effectively.

AG coating effect is minimal.

Cons.
Low vertical resolution (less working space, more scrolling data).

The monitor has mild flickering at lower brightness with so-called "green frame" involved.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ltm6GyMWPQ[/youtube]

Responsiveness

As practically all modern monitors, the Samsung F2380 responsiveness is at the level that is well enough for multimedia use.

Input lag. This quality may be important for a very specific use - some sort of computer games.
This monitor has very low input lag. It's very subjective and also depends on the equipment used.



Some ghosting can be observed (video)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jFDveGNQ0[/youtube]

It may be important for gamers, but for general multimedia it's unnoticeable.

Finally

Samsung F2380

Pros
Well readable text
Supports Full HD format
Two digital inputs
Non-TN panel
Wide gamut free
Good colors after calibration

Cons
Severe color shift and black crush
Requires calibration
Limited viewing angles
Poor contrast on darker video
Low vertical resolution

Last edited by Free Radical; 14-07-09 at 04:58 PM. Reason: Video and Image Links Fixed
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Old 14-07-09   #3
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Re: cPVA is coming

And you are posting this after I have placed order for 2209WA?
Mods, can I -ve rep FR somehow ?
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Old 14-07-09   #4
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Review 2

Source: Samsung F2380 - Page 2 - [H]ard|Forum
Originally Posted by ToastyX@H
Dithering
I ran into a bit of trouble with this monitor. At first, I thought this was a 6-bit PVA panel because I could see temporal and static dithering, but then I found it only happens when connected to a Mac running Leopard. I tried three other machines: a PlayStation 3, an old PC running Vista, and an old Mac running Tiger, and the dithering wasn't visible on any of those systems, which didn't make any sense. Why would it dither on one system but not anywhere else? Then I tried booting Linux on the same machine and the dithering wasn't present there either.

I've always suspected Leopard does some kind of dithering because I noticed I could calibrate without getting banding, which shouldn't be possible without some form of dithering because calibration causes shades to be lost, but 8-bit dithering is very hard to see, so I wasn't sure. I'm thinking maybe the monitor is also doing 8-bit dithering and that's clashing with the dithering being done in Leopard, resulting in significant dithering artifacts. This is a deal breaker for me because I was planning to use it with a Mac.

I'm not 100% sure what's going on, but that makes the most sense. I haven't encountered anything like that before, so I'm not sure what to think. Others will have to verify with their own experiences.


Lag & Response Time

There's no lag as far as I can tell, which came as quite a shock, but the ghosting is horrible, regardless of the response time setting. It's almost like there's no overdrive at all. Black to white response time is okay but everything smears against darker backgrounds. It reminds me of PVA panels before overdrive was introduced. I guess that's why S-PVA panels have so much lag. It seems there's no way to get rid of the ghosting on PVA panels without knowing what the next 2-3 frames will be.

Lag - Samsung F2380 (left) vs. Dell 2209WA (right):


A quick lag test against the Dell 2209WA shows that the Samsung F2380 is very close, maybe a few ms slower due to the response time, but that still puts the lag at under one frame. I showed that the Dell has no lag here: http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.ph...postcount=1263

Ghosting - Samsung F2380:


Moving objects smear very badly against dark backgrounds. I don't know how they can call this 8 ms when it's more like 60+ ms. On the Lagom response time test, the top four squares flash red very strongly. The response time setting doesn't seem to have any effect.

This site also shows similar ghosting: http://www.it.com.cn/diy/monitor/rev...539512_20.html

The Dell 2209WA does much better:



Refresh Rate

Surprisingly, this monitor supports higher refresh rates without skipping frames:


If it skipped frames, it would look something like this:


It can do 72 Hz with these settings:


This is the highest refresh rate I could squeeze in:



Pixel Structure & Sharpness

They are using a more sane pixel structure, so there are no issues with sharpness. Some S-PVA panels had a split-pixel structure that caused a vertical blur on darker colors, although not many people complained about that.




The default sharpness of 60 is the correct sharpness.


Brightness & Contrast

This is what I get when the brightness is set to 50:

Black luminance: 0.051 cd/m
White luminance before calibration: 149.686 cd/m - Contrast = 2935:1
White luminance after calibration: 128.064 cd/m - Contrast = 2511:1

The lowest brightness setting is actually 15. Going lower reduces contrast. When the brightness is set to 15, the white luminance is around 50 cd/m, which is plenty low.

Contrast - Samsung F2380 (left) vs. Dell 2209WA (right):
[IMG]http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7408/f23802209wacontra****ll.jpg[/IMG]

That picture is meant to show the contrast difference only, not shadow detail or color accuracy. That picture was taken while I still had them hooked up to the DVI splitter, so any color profiles would have affected both monitors.

There's actually some minor backlight bleeding in the upper-left corner but it doesn't really show in the picture.


Viewing Angles & Gamma Shifting

The viewing angles are the same as always. Every time I try a PVA panel, I see the same ****. The only difference is some S-PVA panels had the pixels pre-tilted for some reason, causing the left side to be significantly brighter. This monitor doesn't have that problem.

Gamma shift - Samsung F2380 (top) vs. Dell 2209WA (bottom):



Black doesn't glow:



Colors & Gamma

The gamma is **** out of the box with shadow details being crushed. It's like they tried to compensate for the gamma shift but went overboard.

This is how it looks like uncalibrated (compare to the above photos):


There are three gamma settings:

Mode1 = crush shadow details
Mode2 = crush shadow details more and add banding
Mode3 = obliterate all shadow details and add more banding

There's no way to fix the gamma without calibration, but even that doesn't fully help because the gamma shifting still affects the colors.

This is the video card's LUT after calibrating to 2.2/D65:


The dark end of the grayscale is crushed so badly that it has to bring the colors way up.

This site got similar results: 三星 F2380 评测|液晶显示器 评测|1999元广视角大屏!三星F2380首发评测 第7页|IT168 diy硬件

The only difference is I didn't adjust the white point before calibration.

If you want to use it with a PlayStation 3 or as an HDTV, you're stuck with the crushed shadow details.

The gamut is very close to sRGB:



Coating

This monitor has a mild anti-glare coating, not aggressive like the Dell 2209WA.


PlayStation 3

1080p/1080i/720p/480p are all supported, and there's a PC/AV Mode option, which basically acts as an overscan option. PC Mode has no overscan, while AV Mode has 2% overscan. 1080p has perfect 1:1 mapping in PC Mode.


Stand

The monitor is so light that the tension from the stand causes the base to slide when tilting the monitor left or right. Perhaps they should have put a weight in the base.

Also, don't pull the pin out until after you've assembled the monitor because the shaft will shoot out like a telescope.


Summary

Pros:
No significant lag
Can do 72 Hz without skipping frames, 76.55 Hz max
No sharpness issues
Contrast is very high, no glow
Can go down to a low brightness
sRGB gamut
Mild anti-glare coating
Supports 1080p/1080i/720p/480p with optional overscan
Two DVI ports which can be used as HDMI ports


Cons:
Poor pixel response, horrible ghosting
Gamma shifting at slight angles
Shadow details are crushed without calibration
Possible dithering issue with Macs running Leopard

Last edited by Free Radical; 14-07-09 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Fixed Images
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Old 14-07-09   #5
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Re: cPVA is coming

I like samsung soo much!!

My next will be the sammy if it comes out!!
Finally, Dell has a competitor!

Nice work FR! rep+
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Old 14-07-09   #6
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Re: cPVA is coming

the 2209WA is still a superior monitor
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Old 14-07-09   #7
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Re: cPVA is coming

Nice work there FR. Hope the 30 inch drops to reasonable levels. Then I can replace my TV soon. And keep a 17" for the bathroom.
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Old 14-07-09   #8
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Re: cPVA is coming

Originally Posted by Free Radical View Post
the 2209WA is still a superior monitor
I just came to that conclusion myself.

Ah well, I didn't like 16:9 anyway
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Old 14-07-09   #9
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Re: cPVA is coming

Somehow picture quality on 2209WA looks better.
So much for the cPVA panel.
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Old 14-07-09   #10
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Re: cPVA is coming

Spec sheet for the F2380:
monitor.samsung.de (Translated)

Expected Retail price Rs. 21k+ (phail)

Apparently there is a 20" cPVA Samsung F2080 too. 20" and 16:9 is puny compared to the 2209WA.
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Old 14-07-09   #11
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Re: cPVA is coming

Originally Posted by rautela View Post
Somehow picture quality on 2209WA looks better.
So much for the cPVA panel.
It is obvious from the full size images I posted. The 2209Wa offers greater detail at the expense of contrast, and is good for gaming and general graphic use.
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Old 14-07-09   #12
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Re: cPVA is coming

Good work there FR but the cPVA is not so good! the eIPS is what is the right choice.

Originally Posted by Free Radical View Post
It is obvious from the full size images I posted. The 2209Wa offers greater detail at the expense of contrast, and is good for gaming and general graphic use.
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Old 14-07-09   #13
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Re: cPVA is coming

Duh. i said that only.

makes me a happy 2209WA owner. Was just trying to be unbiased but if this is what cPVA has to offer, then better just forget about it. I had high hopes for cPVA, (not that it matters to me )

look at the waterfall pic and the forest pics, the black blots out all the details of the shadows. I can't imagine using my extra extra detailed wallpaper collection on such a monitor now that I have experienced eIPS goodness

And horrible ghosting at this day and age Shame!

I sure hope they don't price it atrociously. They cud have marketed it better if they had added that HDMI port with audio pass through.

Last edited by Free Radical; 14-07-09 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 14-07-09   #14
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Re: cPVA is coming

All I read is the word 'phail'. dell still holds ground, like bhakra nangal.
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Old 14-07-09   #15
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Re: cPVA is coming

Then get the 2209WA when you can!
Good things don't last long.
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