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Old 04-02-10   #1
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Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'



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Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim that Adobe Is 'Lazy'

Apple iPad spells war between HTML and Flash

Adobe responded yesterday to Apple CEO Steve Jobs' latest attack on Jan. 30, when Jobs called Google's "Don't Be Evil" mantra "********" and characterized Adobe as "lazy."

According to Wired, Steve Jobs says Adobe is lazy, Flash is buggy, and the world is moving toward HTML5 anyway. Whenever a Mac crashes, it is most frequently because of Flash, Jobs asserted.

Adobe's response, in the form of a blog entry by Adobe CTO Kevin Lynch, begins with a jab at Apple's iPad: "Some have been surprised at the lack of inclusion of Flash Player on a recent magical device."

Lynch then goes on to explain that Flash was presciently designed for "pen computing tablets, about 15 years before that market was ready to take off." He mentions that Flash is currently used in more than 85 percent of the top Web sites, including Nike, Hulu, BBC and Major League Baseball. Also, Flash is a vital part of the smartphone market; Adobe is "on the verge" of Flash Player 10.1 for smartphones with "all but one" of the top manufacturers, including Google's Android, RIM's BlackBerry, Nokia, and the Palm Pre. Even the Nexus One will be Flash 10.1-equipped and, according to Lynch, it "will rock."

Lynch says it is unlikely that HTML5 will supplant the need for Flash in the foreseeable future. "If HTML could reliably do everything Flash" can, it would "certainly save us a lot of effort," Lynch says. But because Flash is still enabling more than 75 percent of Web video, according to Lynch, Flash will be around "even as HTML advances."

This is not the first time Apple and Adobe have clashed over Flash Apple's been resistant to adding Flash to the iPhone for more than three years now. On March 6, 2008, Steve Jobs made another public jab at Adobe, saying that the Flash Lite Player wasn't "advanced enough" for use on the iPhone, and that it performed "too slow to be useful."

In October 2009, Adobe announced a workaround solution to Apple's lack of cooperation their next version of Flash Professional would allow Flash developers to export their code in a format that would nable it to run on the iPhone as an application a solution that Adobe hoped would please Apple. Not that it matters Adobe's Creative Suite 5 (which includes Flash Professional) is currently in private beta and will be released soon.

Sure, the iPhone has gotten along fine without Flash thus far (although it's recently taken a hit in the smartphone market could lack of Flash be an issue?). But Apple may need to step it up when it comes to the iPad, as many find the lack of Flash on a tablet computer especially as tablet computers are designed to offer an enhanced Web-browsing experience simply unacceptable.


Source: CEO Counters Steve Jobs' Claim that Adobe Is 'Lazy' - PCWorld
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Old 04-02-10   #2
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

It is good that Adobe responded at that high level, sometimes not coming out in the open and letting the opposition speak their minds is bad .
as the cto says, if flash can run on 85% of the web and on most portable players and that html5 will not just be there one day, it will be a very slow transition as there is a need of the users accepting in in all its entirety and that takes time.
Lynch then goes on to explain that Flash was presciently designed for "pen computing tablets, about 15 years before that market was ready to take off." He mentions that Flash is currently used in more than 85 percent of the top Web sites, including Nike, Hulu, BBC and Major League Baseball. Also, Flash is a vital part of the smartphone market; Adobe is "on the verge" of Flash Player 10.1 for smartphones with "all but one" of the top manufacturers, including Google's Android, RIM's BlackBerry, Nokia, and the Palm Pre. Even the Nexus One will be Flash 10.1-equipped — and, according to Lynch, it "will rock."

Lynch says it is unlikely that HTML5 will supplant the need for Flash in the foreseeable future. "If HTML could reliably do everything Flash" can, it would "certainly save us a lot of effort," Lynch says. But because Flash is still enabling more than 75 percent of Web video, according to Lynch, Flash will be around "even as HTML advances."
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Old 04-02-10   #3
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

I wouldnt mind flash, its coming soon, but I really dont feel the need for it. All sites (that I surf anyway) work fine.. except nba.com lol.
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Old 04-02-10   #4
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

There's nothing wrong in what Jobs' has said about flash, Adobe should see and address the problems irrespective of % of Flash on the web!
Take for example, a simple Reader 9.x has turned to be a big bloatware on the PC 100 MB plus is rubbish and unacceptable.
Even till date Flash really slows down the browsers and gulps the bandwidth like hell.
Try to open Rediff stocks, am sure you gonna experience yourself the pain in the A

Last edited by linux; 04-02-10 at 04:08 PM. Reason: format
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Old 04-02-10   #5
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

Originally Posted by vijayninel View Post
But Apple may need to step it up when it comes to the iPad, as many find the lack of Flash on a tablet computer especially as tablet computers are designed to offer an enhanced Web-browsing experience simply unacceptable.
+1 !
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Old 04-02-10   #6
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

Originally Posted by vijayninel View Post
Sure, the iPhone has gotten along fine without Flash thus far (although it's recently taken a hit in the smartphone market could lack of Flash be an issue?). But Apple may need to step it up when it comes to the iPad, as many find the lack of Flash on a tablet computer especially as tablet computers are designed to offer an enhanced Web-browsing experience simply unacceptable.
I am sure you wouldn't have laid your hands on iPad yet (Indian markets have to wait till July '10 or so), without having a look how come you gonna say that iPad without Flash support is unacceptable? I would suggest you to watch the Apple Special Event video to learn more about the enhanced Web-browsing experience! You would also find in that video world renowned The New York Times demo for the iPad revealing their wonderful experience with iPhone app (those apps could be imported seamlessly into iPad - 2 million apps were downloaded by iPhone users till date!) and also note NYT team never complained lack of flash! Also, if you are an Engineer, you would understand that there are design limitations for every embedded device and flash, java etc simply sucks out the batteries. BTW, why do we need flash on iPad when it was not needed on iPhone

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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

^^^Because iPad is not a phone.
It is going to serve two major purposes -

1. As a ebook reader.
2. As a browsing device and an entertainment device.

So if someone is browsing, he might need flash, which is evident considering that a lot of sites still rely on flash and HTML5 is encumbered with its own problems to sort out, before it can hit mainstream.

That said I am all in for HTML5.
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Old 04-02-10   #8
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

Originally Posted by blufox View Post
^^^Because iPad is not a phone.
It is going to serve two major purposes -

1. As a ebook reader.
2. As a browsing device and an entertainment device.

So if someone is browsing, he might need flash, which is evident considering that a lot of sites still rely on flash and HTML5 is encumbered with its own problems to sort out, before it can hit mainstream.

That said I am all in for HTML5.
Yes, I do know those features and target audience (Amazon's Kindle gonna be first hit!).

Honestly, do we really need *bulky* Flash sites? Not really. In fact this point has been realized and taken quite seriously by Web / Content designers, that's why even heavily Flash used websites like say Sony Ericsson offer users an option to switch/skip from Flash intro/content to less bandwidth guzzling pages etc. So, without Flash support on iPad doesn't reduce any browsing experience - that's a myth! That was the point I raised in my above post.

Yes, I do take your point in one context - keeping the technology options open. So, am not say we don't need Flash at all. Flash for PCs, Laptops etc. But even on PCs there are so many problems using Flash! Take a typical plugin loading case in some browsers. Almost every day I suffer with Rediff stocks but somehow I manage thanks to my main choice Moneycontrol.com. Hope am understood

PS: If anyone interested, download the Apple Special Event 2010 from here (legally):

http://www.apple.com/podcasts/apple_...e_keynotes.xml


Last edited by linux; 04-02-10 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Apple URL
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Old 04-02-10   #9
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

^ Flash "might" bloated as you just said .. but that doesn't mean people are "FORCED" not to browse such sites just because one company feels its bloated ... what about 90% users on the planet who find it essential to see those sites ... you can't just take a thing away from them on some personal judgment ....

Why don't you approach all the companies that have flash based sites and tell them that its bloated and not compatible on the ipad ... so please make non flash sites henceforth ... then i guess your point would be justified ....
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Old 04-02-10   #10
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

^^ Right said bro, I browse my share transaction site which uses flash as the fast trade screen... I mean the whole interface is made of flash instead of Jave as java has problems and causes failures in transactions ( it was reported to the company and they had to remove it as previously it was in jave ) plus there are many other navigation bars and such stuff on flash.
I personally am against flash, let me tell you that. have been since 1998 !!! but still I would cringe at the lack of option to the users not being able to view sites made in flash !!!!
It is a choice and should be left to the users, if flash fades out then so be it. I dont want to be told or forced by Mr. iGOD aka Steve jobs that flash is not good for me !!!
similar is the scene with the other features, no hdmi, no universal plugin support and on top of that we cant even install softwares as we would like !!! only the apple approved softwares or apps can be installed... I consider this very bad step.
There are many other points coming to my mind but these will be all for now.
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

In all this debate, let me reiterate that flash is a complex piece of software.
Plus it is free for us. Adobe has a business model around flash not directly on flash.

So no matter how bloated flash maybe(which it is to some extent), you cannot imagine web without flash.
Youtube/Hulu/most_of_video_capable_sites* minus flash = *welcome back to web of 90's*.

I would like to see how anything which can replace Flash is going to save battery life or whatever is needed on an embedded device/any other device? Point is encoding and decoding cycles which need CPU cycles. No matter what you use for videos, it is going to be an intensive process.

Adobe might be a small company but it is one of its kind with product rivaled by literally none.
People at Adobe know if HTML5 gets ratified with proper encoding, flash has a rival just like IE has Firefox.

Obviously Adobe will open source Flash itself, after all it is of no use to them directly but like I said indirectly.
Once Flash is open sourced, we will find 90% of criticism turning to praise.

It takes right timing and smart acumen to judge market and I am sure Adobe is better at it than a lot of its competitors.
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Old 04-02-10   #12
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

^^ Right said Pradeep, Applaud.
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Old 04-02-10   #13
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

One thing that a lot of people on the forums dont know is that we had almost got a Flash navbar for Erodov.com a few months back. Karan had approved of it as well saying that flash is almost universal now.

However the lack of availability of flash on the iPhone was troubling me and so I preferred to use a JavaScript based navbar instead. So yes do I think if this gadget gains serious popularity then the lack of availability of flash on apple devices will influence the decisions of web designers while making their sites.
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Old 04-02-10   #14
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

^^ That's what I said exactly, many sites use flash navbars now specially as google has started reading flash ( it makes it easier to read links )
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Re: Adobe Counters Steve Jobs' Claim That Adobe Is 'Lazy'

Originally Posted by ManISinJpr View Post
^^ That's what I said exactly, many sites use flash navbars now specially as google has started reading flash ( it makes it easier to read links )
What I am saying is that if this gadget becomes seriously popular; which it might not; Then a lot of people will start to avoid using flash if there are universal alternatives available.

We were forced to reconsider about using flash on the site because of the iPhone. There was no Ipad back then....now we may have to consider about iPad as well.
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